Chaneé Jackson Kendall
EPISODE 95
“People have a conversation about polyamory in the clouds, and I like to have conversations about polyamory on the ground. ”
In this episode, Jess sits down with Chaneé Jackson Kendall, a black queer polyamorous woman, activist, educator and content creator. The two talk about the differences of poly theory vs. poly reality as people who experience polycule life everyday. With 15 years of polyamorous living experience, Chaneé has also brought up her son in a household with multiple mothers and father present. This has only elevated the lifestyle that their family is able to live in many ways, highlighting a shared workload, endless love, and financial freedom. They dig deeper into racial assumptions about polyamory and the importance of culturally competent poly education.
In this episode of Open Late:
• Polyamory Theory vs. Real Polyamorous Living
• What’s a "Mom-glomerate"
• The Benefits of Community Parenting
• 4 Pillars of Intentional Polyamory
• Healthy Time Away from Your Child
Connect with Michelle:
• Instagram: @chaneespeaks
• Instagram: @blackpolypride
Connect with Jessica:
• Instagram: @journey.with.jessica | @openlatethepodcast
• Website: openlatepodcast.com
• YouTube: Open Late Podcast
• What's my relationship style? Take the Open Late Quiz
• Join our free chat community, "Open Talks" on WhatsApp
Evita's Episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/open-late/id1587979583?i=1000564831532
Evita's Book:
Polyamory and Parenthood by The Daylovers
https://remodeledlove.samcart.com/products/polyamory-parenthood-book
Episode Transcript:
Jess:
Welcome back to openly podcast. I'm your host, Jessica Esfandiary. And this week I have with Chaneé Jackson Kendall, who is a black polyamorous queen. I have to say that before I say - activist, content creator, event planner, educator or so many things. I found Chaneé actually on Remodeled Love. She was doing an Instagram take over for Jessica and the Day Lovers. And I was instantly struck by how you spoke about living polyamory versus like practicing polyamory in an ideal way. Like, okay, this is what I want to do, but you are like fully putting this into your life in the way that you raise your kids, in the way that you do your work, and you present yourself in the world. And I've yet to see anyone do it at your level besides Jess. So as I'm about to become a mother, selfishly, I'm like, I want to know everything that this Woman has to share. So what better way than to have you on the show? Welcome to Open Late Podcast, Chaneé.
Chaneé:
Thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me here and for seeing me. Part of the work that I feel called to do in this space is really to stand on the other side of the theory of polyamory and talk about what the reality of being a black polyamorous person, what that means, what that looks like, and how much the reality of polyamory differs from the theory of it. That's exactly the reason one of the reasons why I'm here.
Jess:
Amazing. I would love to dive right into like, what that is. Okay, so somebody hears that high level, okay - The theory of polyamory versus the reality. So what is the theory that most people are living?
Chaneé:
I think so that the theory of polyamory, it's like, “oh, there's abundant love and everyone loves everyone”. And, you know, I can have these relationships in this utopia, and that is what it will be like, right? And a lot of times people kind of have conversations about polyamory in the clouds, and I like to have conversations about polyamory on the ground. Right? What does that mean? What does it actually look like? What skills do you need to make that work long term? Those are the kind of conversations that I want to have.
Jess:
Amazing. Now, how did this become so important to you? Because I imagine on your journey, you started to realize that maybe I mean, for myself, I can only speak for me, but it was like, okay, I had certain ideals. And then once the situations came into my life where I could live them, the things that I wanted versus what my partner wanted versus what was actually going to be applicable in our lives were different. And so I started to see that when, you know, I fell in love with a woman and wanted her around all the time. So what was it in your journey where you were like. So okay, this is like a theory. But maybe this doesn't work in my life. Maybe what were some of those like big touch points that had you say, okay, there are kind of two different things happening here.
Chaneé:
Right. I think the first part is that I realized very early on that the way that I wanted to live polyamory and the way that the representations of polyamory that I saw were not the same. The other thing is that my husband and I had been together for 15 years and we've been married for nine years. And most of the people who were talking about polyamory had not been polyamorous prior to marriage. Right. So my husband and I were polyamorous when we got married. We had our partners by our side at our wedding ceremony. And so I wanted to represent that not everyone choosing polyamory was switching from monogamy. Monogamy has not been the overarching default of our relationship. We had, you know, in 15 years, we may have had stretching it, three years of that being not monogamous at all.
And so it just wasn't our story. And so I wanted to present what our story was and that there are other options, then we don't have to do this whole, like hierarchical, like, I'm letting you do this thing and I'm unlearning everything about what being monogamously married mean. I think there's a lot of people telling that story, and I think that's good for the people that it applies to. But I want it to kind of be a voice that says, Hey, there's another way. So that was like the first touch point.
Jess:
Okay. So were you exploring polyamory or not, or some version of non-monogamy before even meeting your husband?
Chaneé:
Well, no. I met my husband. I actually met my husband. Very. It's a very cute story, guys. I met my husband on the very first day of college. So we actually did an immersion program for minorities at the PWI that we went to an we met there. So we were aware of each other very early. We were 18 years old. Well I was 18. He wasn't even 18 yet. And then we were friends for a couple of years, two or three years we started dating. We dated very briefly our sophomore year of college, and we realized that the connection that we have could be forever, but we're not ready for forever yet. And so we both went and dated other people with this kind of silence, understanding that we'd be back. And then in our Final year of college, we got back together and we've been together ever since. So what happened was we after college, we lived separately. We lived in two different states. And during that time we began exploring different kinds of non-monogamy, and I've been doing so ever since.
Jess:
So there's deep understanding that from early on that you were life partners and that you would return.
Chaneé:
Right. And it sounds so like cliché, but that is genuinely our story. We knew, you know, sometimes, like it's like when, you know, you know, but we also didn't want to fuck it up, right? It was a situation of meeting the right person at the wrong time. Right. And if anyone, you know, you just so happened to be listening and you feel like you may be with the right person, it's the wrong time. Leave. Cut it off now before you mess it up to the point where you can't come back.
Jess:
Yes.
Chaneé:
Take a minute. Go to be who you all need to be there for each other and for yourself, and then come back. Because when we met each other as idealistic teenagers and we came back together as young adults with a plan. And that that foundation for not just our non-monogamous lives, but our careers and our family and all of that was laid very early on.
Jess:
Wow. And when I hear that, especially from someone you know, who's full on practicing and living, this, very open poly lifestyle, it's like, oh, that's almost in itself like a sprinkling of non-monogamy because you already had a connection and a bond. And I imagine that even in those years apart. Like, well, actually, let me ask you, was there like a knowingness in both of you that you would come back together?
Chaneé
Oh, that's a spicy question. I'm a little bit of a woowoo girl, so we're just going to say that I always knew. I think that he's not woo at all. And I think that he would probably say he knew, too. So I would say I knew. I didn't know that it would go this far, but I knew that our story wasn't over. I knew that our story wasn't over. And so when we got back together in early 2009, I think officially, you know, we had talks at that point. We'd already talked about like having a child together and what that child might be like. And, you know, I envisioned what changing my last name might feel like. I actually had a moment yesterday. I was just like signing the check at a restaurant. And I looked down and I said, you know, there were days you prayed for this right there. There were days when just signing your name with his last name was the thing that you always wanted. So that was that was important for me. But, you know, my relationship with my husband, I think, is a secondary storyline to what have pushed me into polyamory. I really think what it is, is more so the way that I do friendships and my queerness is what has made me embrace polyamory in the way that I have because I've had to accept, Like what being queer meant, right? Like I fell madly in love with a woman six months before he and I got married. And I knew that I was. I always knew that I was bisexual. And I'm one of those people who never thought I was straight. Right. Like, it would just. It just never occurred. But I didn't know that I could fall so madly, deeply, like, I want to spend the rest of my life with you. I didn't know that. That this idea of having multiple life partners would be something that was important to me. So once I met my co-parent and I was like, Oh, this is like, this is life. It was it was a life changing love for me.
Jess:
Yeah.
Chaneé:
And so then I was like, Well, how the hell do I do this? And I started, you know, I'm a nerd. So I was like, Well, you start researching, right? And what I found, and that's how I found my friend Evita. Right. And but that was it. That was the only person who looked like me, who had any kind of similar story, any kind of desire. And eventually, what you realize is that it's going to have to be you. That if there's no one else speaking up about it, if there's no one else writing the rules, if there's no one else teaching people how to do it. I was like, Well, I've made all these mistakes. I've done it all these wrong ways. I kind of am being called to share all the wrong things I've done and I and the way that we've kind of navigated through it and figured it out. And so now I'm sharing, you know, we, we figured out some stuff, right? We it's like we've crashed level one in level two. And as we get to level three and we figure out now, we're trying to think about like, what does saving for our child's future look like with multiple financial kind of configuration? Right. What does it look like for him to inherit things from all of our families? Like those are the kind of conversations that we're having right now.
Jess:
Yeah. Wow. So beautiful. And we jumped to, like, present. But I want to go back and talk about also. Sorry, I wanted to mention you mentioned Evita. And for those of you listening, if you haven't caught this episode yet, we had her back on the show, my gosh, like almost a year ago now, which means we're due back. But it's episode 37 and we really dive into some of the same topics we're going to talk about today, like polyamorous parenting and how to navigate multiple children and multiple partners. And it was like, yeah, scratching the surface. And I feel like.
Chaneé:
Evita’s book is currently available for preorder and I wrote the foreword, so go get it. Go Order it.
Jess:
You did? Oh, that's so exciting. So we will link that in the show notes, too. Yeah, Incredible human. We met through like a Burning Man community years ago and I didn't even realize that she was like, polyamorous. And I think at the time, I don't even know if I was publicly. No, I was. It was in 2019. So I had just came out, like to my Burning Man community.
And that was about, you know, being non-monogamous and queer and what an accepting community. I mean, and then I started to just follow her because we were, we were at a meeting for diversity and inclusion that had nothing to do with openness. And I followed her on Instagram and then realized that she creates all this content that I was like, Oh my gosh, no one's talking about this. And I felt like so taboo. And then to see her educating on it, I was like, Okay, this is amazing. So anyway. Well, I love that on the jump for now. I would love to hear about the early years of intentionally creating a polymerous life because you said, you know, you started to do the research. You found one person, right, that led you to say, okay, you know, it's going to be me. Which right.
Chaneé:
Right. It's going to be me.
Jess:
A lot of myself in not like, okay, I don't really see a lot of this being said or being shared or being educated in there. Are people just being real about like, it's not going to be pretty. So how did you navigate that? So you fall in love with a woman and you get and you move into, you know, marrying your husband, your partner there, I'm guessing, right. How does the three of you start to or maybe there are more partners Take us on that journey. And having this life in a public way in the beginning.
Chaneé:
Well, I mean, the thing about it is our life is not public, right? But we are who we are everywhere we go. And I think that's a very line that I hold very close to me. And what that means is that what you know about my life is and will always be what I choose to share. Right. And what that means is that, you know, that I have multiple partners because nobody that doesn't know that is meeting fucking or financing me. Therefore, it's not hidden information. Right. I'm a grown ass woman as my partners. But I also I think it's important to talk about the fact that I am a polyamorous educator, but they are all in a relatively conservative career, Right? And so they I mean, in just in just when we even talk about personality wise, even outside of their careers, they don't have large social media presences. They don't talk about their business a lot on the Internet. And so I intentionally walk a fine line of sharing my life in an honesty and truthfulness without telling their business on the Internet, because that's important to me. Whereas being in relationship with me does mean that there are some things about our life that are public. But again, it's all Google-able and it's going to be in the book.
Jess:
Yeah.
Chaneé:
So you know what? When we first started building our life, it was, you know, we didn't know at the time where my personal career path would take me, but we knew that we didn't want to hide or lie. Right. So she moved in with us shortly before I gave birth. She lived in another city at the time, so she moved to our city. And in April our son was born a month early in June. So, you know, we have a two months of adjustment time to living together. And then we had a baby. And thankfully I was able to stay home with baby for, you know, I think maybe 18 months or so before I even thought about going back to work. And so that was like an adjustment period for us. But now that had been something I had always wanted my mom, my parents. First of all, I was just I was raised in a tradition of love. I think it's always important to say that I am incredibly relationally blessed. My parents have been married for 48 years and we are all here. And my family and I are very close to this day, you know. I'm always asking like, you know, how often do y'all talk to your sisters? Because me and my sisters are kind of clingy and we talk to each other like a couple of times a day, right? So I am surrounded by love, even in spite of our differences and the different ways that we've chosen to live our lives. My family is very close, and so having a very close family chosen and otherwise, it's something that things that were important to me. So and the thing is, we met when our son was three months old. You're going to start to notice a theme. My partner and I fell madly in love with another woman. And so my son has had four parents as long as he's been aware. We both fell in love with her. She lived in another city. And shortly after his first birthday, she moved here so that we were all in the same city with our child. So all that really means is that our son is literally the luckiest human being on the planet because he has four who are there, who are involved in his life on a daily and active basis. And that and what I think the most important thing to all of us, right, our public world is absolutely centered around our child. We all joke that, like none of us believes in hierarchy or has a primary partner, but like, it's really our son, right? Like, our son is the reason why we're here. He's the reason why we maintain our family the way that we do. We want him to feel secure and happy. And the reality is, the way that our current society is set up, like even with lots and lots of money, two parent household are largely not happy. And that's the reality. And a lot of the happiness that my family and the happiness and peace that my family enjoys is largely because there are for adults with which to split the emotional labor, the financial labor, you know, just all of it right. So that was it was important to me. It's always been important to me to be able to be an excellent mom, but also a whole person.
Jess:
Yes.
Chaneé:
And so being able to be a whole person meant I get to show up to motherhood with two partners. Right. Like, I get we are we call ourselves the mom-glomerate. Right. So when we have our mommy day, it's us, right? We did it together. So, Eli, having three moms kind of it takes down the pressure of all these ridiculous standards of motherhood that our society has. And I mean, I think that but I also say it still feels very hard because I am the only one of us who currently doesn't work for anyone besides myself. So what that means is that even though there are four of us, there's still some default parent stuff there, right? Because when Eli is sick, my day is the one that is instantly interrupted. Right. My partners are amazing, right? Everybody's going to whip out their calendar and see what we can make shape. But at the end of the day, I have the most ability to be flexible for our child. So we still, you know, and because of because of that, like default parent stuff, I spend a lot, not a lot. I make intentional time to be away from my family.
Jess:
Yeah.
Chaneé:
Yeah. So I make intentional time to be away from the family so that I can recharge my batteries. I take a trip, I go visit my friends, I do important stuff like that.
Jess:
So important. And thank you for speaking on it. As you know, I mentioned earlier someone who is about to become a mother this year looking at the nuclear family and hearing from creators like you and Jess and Evita about, you know, For what is sort of a big façade it is. That it's all possible to do with like two parents and then that leaves out the entire population of single parents. Right. It is just nearly impossible to live your life, like you said as a whole person still yourself and show up every day, day in and out, you know, for a child or children and manage in this like, you know, crazy, far gone capitalist patriarchal world that we live in. And so the more people we have speaking about creating intentional families and, you know, creating this polyamorous life, for those of you listening, I have a lot of anonymous listeners. It doesn't even have to be the polyamorous. And I hope but it could be any version of. Yeah, like not the nuclear family. Go ahead. Right.
Chaneé:
I want to speak to that because I tell people all the time that, like, that's white people shit. It is absolutely a White people shit. Like, I wasn't raised in a nuclear family. My parents have been married for 48 years. But I to this day, I have very strong, healthy relationship with other adults who were deeply involved in my life. Right. I have aunts, I have uncles like my parents, friends. Those people actively participated in my life on a day to day basis. And so I don't really know where we started doing this thing, where it was like, oh, nobody to help your child but you. And like, you know, I think what happened is the world got scary. And so the idea was, oh, because some people are scary. I'm going to insulate my child and myself so that Only at best, two people, two adults are involved in their lives. People starting right, moving away from their from their biological families, their families of origin. And like I can say that Eli, it's eight years, it's almost eight years old, will be eight in June. And he's had a babysitter that he's never had a babysitter that we didn't have a prior relationship with. And I've only paid two babysitters in my entire life as a mother because he has his uncles and we have family right. And what a what a privilege to be able to say that.
Jess:
And thank you for. Yeah, I there's so much here that I want to like. There's so many directions that we can go in. But thank you for speaking to it because I do I really want to get into the idea of culturally competent polymerous education and talk because there is such a big difference. And you know, you and I know it because, like, this is the world that we're in and the world that we like spend a lot of time in. But for people listening, there's such different representation across the board between like this white version of poly and everything and like bleeding into like wellness and all of that and like what's true and real for so many other cultures. And, you know, I only know what I read in books, but I know that black culture has been polyamorous and been community minded and village oriented for so long as have like white people. But it's definitely a capitalist thing. I think that it's like mine. This is my child. This is our home. Like, we don't share it. Right? And that definitely stems from, like, colonialism, from sharing.
Chaneé:
Sharing things means poverty. That's what happened. We have this idea that sharing things and having communal anything means that you're poor. Right. When in reality, I know that for us, for my family, being communal about some things, especially financially, has been a positive indicator of wealth for us. Right. And so I think we need to like re stop just kind of accepting the things that we are told. Right. Because it's really easy to have a stay at home mom when you still have two incomes. Right. It's a little harder to have a stay at home mom. And that means it's only one income paying the bills. And so it's just that single thought, right? Like some people for some people, that's going to be this huge, like light bulb. It's never occurred to them. But like, they.
Jess:
Literally just wrote this down actually, that you said, like how community means poverty. I'm trying to scribble everything else, what you're saying, is this possible? Like I can't go back and listen to it. But that was a huge lightbulb for me that I never connected the dots. But it is very true that I think that that's how people see the world when it's entirely opposite. But that's come from, you know, media and propaganda and the stories that we tell ourselves that aren't really true, that has really pushed people into this like ideal two parent household.
Chaneé:
Yeah, nonwhite families have always have always lived across generationally to build wealth. Right. Even if you think about myself, I didn't move out from my parents house since I was 21. Right. I lived very briefly. I rented very briefly. And my husband and I bought the house we live in now. I think I was 23. You know what I mean? So even when you think about the way that we're told to, like, go out in the world and make your own way, but like, why? Why are we doing that? We're right. My big push is to question what you're told. QUESTION Like, is this really every action that you get ready to take in life? Like, is this pushing me closer or farther away from who I want to be? A lot of the things that we're encouraged to do don't really make any sense.
Jess:
Right? And it's so much it takes so much introspection and like examining of self to take this new knowledge, right. To take what you're hearing that you might be resonating with, or even if you're listening to this and you feel that this is like confronting for you, think about like what and why and what meanings you're placing on words like nuclear family or terms like nuclear family. Because I know, like, that's a hot word for people. Like, I'll get people that are write in and it's like, what's wrong with the traditional family? And it's like, well, we've you've assigned traditional family values to this idea of nuclear, right? Or we're talking about like whiteness, right? What meaning do we all assign like these terms to? Because just like share, people who listen to the show, like, I talk a lot about like growing up in a poor household, like white poor. And I say that all the time. I'm like, Yeah, we were on welfare, you know, And we actually did live multigenerational for a long time. Like my stepdad’s dad lived with us. My mother's grandmother lived with us for a long time. My mother's mom lived with my brother and her. I was much older for the last ten years. But it's like, of course, we all have these very different lives and lifestyles. So rather than be triggered by a word or feel like this is confrontational, just examine what it means for you. I just like love bringing my listeners along because I know what some people are thinking when we talk about this and some people will tune out this conversation. But I think this is the most important conversation we can be having is like culturally, the way that you put it, culturally competent education. Can actually all understand each other?
Chaneé:
Yes. We have to know where we started from, right? So that's why when I talk about like intentional polyamory, we start right? We start any conversation of intentional polyamory. We start with self-worth, right? So it's like knowing who you are, what biases you're bringing to the conversation, what your past is, right? And like really knowing where you are in your journey of self, knowing what you want, what's important to you. And that's the first pillar of self-worth. And then we move to the second pillar, which is what kind of culture around your relationships are you trying to create? How do you want to feel in your relationships with your relational culture? Right? Some people want to feel free. Some people want to feel rested, love abundant, whatever it is that you're trying to create, you work backwards from that place, like, what do I want for my relationships? And then you can create that through the third pillar, which is information sharing, right? If you want to feel loved and supported, there are kinds of things you have to share with your partners and with the people in your life so that they can support you. And without proper without you having shared, like even things about your past and how you grew up. If I don't know that you have a particular trigger around like bills being late, right. For me, if I, if I grew up in a house where there was always enough money, I'm not going to feel like it's like, oh, the bill is a one day. Like it doesn't really matter. No big deal. But that could be a huge deal for you, right? So the extent to which we have we get to start get to know ourselves in order to be able to know what we want, in order to be able to share with our partners those things. And then the fourth pillar of intentional polyamory is community, right? Because nothing can exist in without an ecosystem around it, right? So all relationships need support. You need a place to go. I talk about a lot of my coaching sessions, like you need an “Am I tripping friend”, right? You can't be polyamorous. You can't be any kind of non-monogamous in a vacuum because if you don't have knowledge and if you're non-monogamous and you don't have non-monogamous friends, you're going to spin out very quickly. You must have non-monogamous people you are not having sex with. So you can just have a conversation and you can be like, hey, or even ask stuff like how to job it is. This like have you all you know. Is this a challenge that you faced and how did you guys face it? Right? So all those I kind of have looked back on my polyamorous journey and identified these four pillars as these other things along the way that helped me to build a life that supported my relationship. Because your life, you have to put an infrastructure in your life that supports the kind of relationships you have or your relationships won't last.
Jess:
Yeah, absolutely. That's one of the most important things I think we've covered so far is the community aspect and it is so challenging to do this, to live this way, to really live a polyamorous life sanely. If you don't have people to call, what city are you in again? Remind me.
Chaneé:
I'm in Atlanta.
Jess:
You're in Atlanta. Okay. So for everybody listening who's like, There's nobody where I live, I get that all the time.
Chaneé.
Like everybody says that. I'm like, Yeah. And you said many places. Like if people in like Atlanta, D.C.. New York, Philadelphia, and I'm like, there's so many, like polyamorous people where you live. But like literally a good if you just apply yourself to a Google search, you can find your people. You really can.
Jess:
Yes. And I just recently found Bloom communities, which I didn't even know existed. But it's all everything on the spectrum, you know, kinky, queer poly. And it's a lot of cool events, whether they're workshops. Whether they're parties. But a lot of times it's just meetups like hikes. And they're all over, all over the country, all over the world. In fact, they're international. But I just, yeah, the community aspect and having people to remind you like that, it's not always easy and like they've been through it too, and to not question your choices, but to just support you in them. Because the people who do not understand non-monogamy will ask you the wrong questions and will have you thinking that you are crazy for making this choice. And the the non-monogamy will always be like the scapegoat that they'll see as the root of your. It's always going to be a trigger.
Chaneé.
It’s always the polyamory fault.
Jess:
Yeah. Rather than the fact that like, you know, you have a money conversation from when you were a kid like you brought up earlier, you know, the paying the bills thing being a trigger. And I've been through that. And so I know that It's that it's just such, When you have that community, it makes this lifestyle so much easier. It really does.
Chaneé:
And and it's also that I wanted to like so going back to like when I first kind of encountered Evita and like how, how that kind of played out for me. Yeah, I was introduced to earlier this year. I was introduced to the concept of possibility modeling and the important the idea of possibility modeling is that we need to see people who are similar to us doing things that are similar to what we want to do, right? So a lot of people and when I in 2019, when my co-founder and I started Black Poly Pride, we realized that if you looked on the Internet alone, you thought that polyamory was something that only people, upper middle class white people did. Right? And if you are a black person who feels moved and like push towards non-monogamy. But if you but that immediate turnoff is going to be that people like who look like you don't do it. Right. Right. And so it's important to see. For me, I realized I had to start speaking up because I was doing it every day, right? And I was doing it successfully and happily and in nontoxic ways. Right? And yeah. I wanted to let other people who naturally loved the way that I love know that. It's not that it's not just something that upper middle class white people do, you know. Now, there are things in our society that make it much easier for people, for those people to be out about it right. But that's what I have. What I have largely found personally and professionally is that it's just who has the privilege of speaking out about it, not who's doing it right.
Jess:
Right. Because in my experience, as I've started to do the research, if you don't if you're listening and you don't know my full story, I was we were very closeted and very private for the first five years of non-monogamy and for the last five we've been out and whatever. But I thought it was taboo. We did it without a guide, just kind of navigating on our own. It wasn't until like year seven or eight that I started this podcast that I started to read books, find content creators and like and discover this whole world, which is such a backwards way, but it was my way, whatever. And that's when I found. That in my experience, I'm seeing now that I've done the digging that actually black people are practicing and living in such a deeper rooted experiences of polyamory and probably in greater numbers than I would say, like white culture. And it's so interesting that we only actually see it from white culture in media, online and spaces like that.
Chaneé:
We live in a racist society. And so the voices, people who white people are writing the articles, so they're picking white people be in the article of. Right. White people have people who have more money, people who have more privilege in general. And I include myself in the piece in that people who have more privilege. Right. I get to I have the benefit of being able to do only do work that I care about. Right. If I had to if I was the primary breadwinner for my family and I had to be primarily concerned with paying the bills, I wouldn't be sitting here with you today. Right. So even my ability to speak out about polyamory is supported by my partners ability to care for our family abundantly. Right? So everyone has to check their privilege when we come sit, when we come in, sit down with this conversation. It's a lot of people that are doing polyamory every day, but they're at work right now. They can't talk to you about it. You can't create content about it. They can't take the time to amass 100,000 followers on Instagram because they're at work.
Jess:
Right. And to go even deeper into what you're saying, like it's often not safe. It's just not as safe for, you know, any kind of minority to live a lifestyle that's like nontraditional or not conservative because you're already so at risk for violence all the time and for being marginalized and for being, you know, your work to be taken advantage of or your work to be valued less than your white counterpart. So, I just you know, I feel like it's so important to say and I'm so thankful that we're having this conversation. And to.
Chaneé:
And to that point, largely what's happening now. Right. So the pandemic caused an explosion of polyamorous content creators. Right. But as someone who has been doing this work for publicly for quite some time right. Google me in case you need to fact check that. What has happened is that my work and the work of other firms of color is now being regurgitated by people with large followings and then the money and the shine and the bandwidth is being assigned to content creators as opposed to the educators who are the originators of the work. That's something that you're always going to hear me talking about. And it's a thing that's happening. So, I remind people when whenever you are taking in content, make sure that you never take advice from someone who's not where you want to be. I think that's some good life advice, period. But particularly when it comes to non-monogamy, right, there is something to be there is oh there's absolutely something to be gained from having done it wrong. But and I tell people this when I'm working with them and the coaching, you know, in a coaching modality is that I can tell you all the ways that I fucked it up. But I can also come and tell you how I've come back and got it right. Right. And those two parts are kind are what make this a beneficial conversation, right? If I am, if I've just fucked it up and I have haven't quite figured it out, it's cool to be like I can be your friend, but am I someone you go to for advice, right? To always, always stop and check where you're getting your advice from, right? Because another sick person, is not a doctor.
Jess:
I fucking love that so much. And it reminds me I, I feel like one of the best things about good educators, coaches, whatever, you know, guides or whoever you're working with is when they can say, You know what? I don't know, but let's go find somebody who does, or let's go find someone who that's their lived experience, right? That's when, you know, you actually have like a solid person in your corner because. Yeah. I mean it. And it's hard for be like it's hard for people's egos. I don't I don't know why it to be like, oh, I actually don't have all the answers.
Chaneé:
You know, I feel very confident. I'm really, really good and I know how to do right. But like if you ask me, like, oh, how do I navigate polyamory in divorce? I'm might be like, Oh, you call Evita, because I don't know nothing about that. Like, that's your answer. You have to be able to say, these are the things I'm really good at and these are the things we're going to have to find somebody else, right? So I think everyone should be a conscientious consumer of content, I think is a really important message that I want to spill out.
Jess:
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Is there anything else you want to share on this topic that we're like, really excavating here? Like just being competent, right, in all cultural ways and in all the ways that are diverse for people who are listening just let's leave nothing on the table.
Chaneé:
Right? No, I think that I think that the really big thing is to remember that there's nothing new under the sun. So, as you take in things and as you decide how you're going to spend your resources and things like that, make sure that you that you are being conscientious in how you, you know, take in take in polyamorous content and make sure you're starting a self work guys. Like if you try and jump in the pillars of intentional polyamory, you try and jump in and focus on what your partners are doing. Or if we try and focus on community before you even know who you are, if you do it out of order, you're not going to get the same results, right? So there is a path and there is an order that will help you to build this intentionally polyamorous life. And it all starts with you knowing who you are and doing the work to like, know what your strengths are, know what your weaknesses are, and be actively working towards sharing.
Jess:
Thank you. Thank you.
Chaneé:
You're welcome. Good.
Jess:
Oh, my gosh. You know, I just remembered. I'm excited for everybody who's listening to this on day one, because if you pop over to our Instagram, Chaneé is actually doing Instagram take over for those of you that are listening to this, like the day that it comes out. So, I'm sure that she's sharing lots of goodness on there, like insert date here. I'll tell my editor and hopefully we can make it happen on that exact day if it works with your schedule. But let's I would I want to ask I want to kind of go back into your personal life just a little bit before we chat about your work that you're doing with the Day Lovers. Are you planning on having more kids and growing this this molecule, growing this family? Like what are your current desires?
Chaneé:
Oh, that's a TBD for me. I don't know the answer to that. Maybe. I think that I think that more children are definitely in my life plan, but I'm not sure if it's an immediate thing. That that I will say I'm going to be somebody else's momma one day.
Jess:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's I'm thinking with three mommas, like you're having more babies. Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, we will stay. We will definitely stay on that journey watching.
Chaneé:
I'm going to pop out of the bay. You guys, we're going to talk. We put out with the baby.
Jess:
On the day we do the Instagram takeover, holding an infant now. Okay, cool. And as far as like, you know, because these are the questions that I get from people all the time, which is not how my mind works. But now that I've been doing a podcast for a long enough, I tend to think about what are people thinking? Is there a desire to add more just family members in general to like your living situation because you're all under one roof? How like growing a community?
Chaneé:
So that's so three of us live together and one of us live separately. There are no current plans to change that in either direction. All four of us date date as we see fit and our dating as we see fit. So, you know, when you're poly the way that I'm poly, you have to make sure that when you, like, make certain appearances, like, I'm not claiming anybody I am dating, let's just put that out there. My partners also have other partners, you know, who knows what tomorrow will bring our current home doesn't have any more space for any more people. But we're also not going to stay here forever. And I'm not. I don't think any of us are opposed to the idea of sharing space with someone else. But it would just, you know, it's like, oh, it would have to be perfect. And the reality it might be perfect, right? So.
Jess:
Yeah.
Chaneé:
Like, like we don't have this like master cult, like commune plan, right? That's not our lane. But we do. We are not opposed, we're not like our polyamory is not closed, so it's not like if somebody else wants to have another partner, we want to sit down and vote about it, right? We all have other partners to the extent that we want to. And I could definitely see myself with another partner part time or like doing building lives that work for all of us. Right. And because there are four of us raising one child at current, at present, it does give us more flexibility to be able to show up to that, to other relationships.
Jess:
Amazing. Thank you for sharing. People always want to know. They are like we have to have the latest Even in my relationships, it's like what's going on with you and Lauren? And you know, she's in love. I see. We see she's in love with somebody else, you know? But it's such a great demonstration of like, yeah, this is your public you're raising a child together and you all have other partners. And that goes back to you speaking in the beginning. I just want to highlight it again, cause I think it's so important of, of being A whole person and a parent. You get to have both. You do not have to sacrifice.
Chaneé:
Absolutely. So, I was going to say that that being able to date right as we see fit. It's part of it's part of like our relational culture, right? It's part of our relational culture that we should all have the freedom to date as we desire, right? Our desire to date wanes based on our personality and what else is going on in our life. But it's really easy to, like, put a date on the calendar or like I have like a weekend with a partner plan in a couple of days. And it's like, you know, you look, and you look at the calendar, you see what else is going on. We try to make sure that two parents that unless we're all going somewhere together, that there's always two hands on deck. Right. And if there aren't hands on deck, we're calling in and auntie, because we don't want any of us to have an emotionally impoverished experience of parenting. That's not what we want. So very intentional about the way that we plan time away from our child and try to make sure that everyone has access to it.
Jess:
I love it. So, I just like people are always so worried about the kids and polyamory. Meanwhile, this is the most over loved child ever who naturally is going to. He's going to come up in the World and be like, This world does not have enough love and like change everything. You know. People are always like, so concerned and it's like the like, yeah.
Channé:
And how like Multiple loving adults in a child's life, a bad thing. Like it means you have more people to pick him up from school and like his basketball games. I don't understand.
Jess:
Exactly. Yeah, let's talk about this because I want to highlight the work that you're doing with Jess. And you know, and the day lovers just published their book, Polyamory and Parenting. It's incredible. Everyone must grab it. We're going to link it in the show notes and then you and Jess are actually doing it and oh, so intentional.
Chaneé:
Polyamory is my thing. Jessica has been absolutely amazing in like making sure that it has seen the light of day and that everyone has known it. So, what happened? This is how this how Jess is involved in an intentional polyamory. So we have, you know, we did those lives right? And so, our intention in the lies was to really just talk about what creating a life where parenting was and was a part of our polyamory, what that looked like. And we did a part one. It was great. It went really well. And then we signed up to do part two where we could really delve into like how, you know, parenting came out. And as I was doing my bullet points, like just to what we would talk about in the live, I realized that those bullet points, the four pillars of intentional polyamory. Those were the bullet points. That's what I said. That's how you create a life that supports your polyamory. And so intentional polyamory, which is like my - it's my baby. It was born in that live, right? And so what I've been able to experience is it is a six. The first one was five weeks, but the next one will be six weeks. And we work through each of the pillars of intentional polyamory. And we do exercises. We have intentional conversations with our partners. It's something that I would encourage people to come to independently. If your partner wants to do it as well, that's great, but it is absolutely something that you need to come to as a whole person and you need to come knowing that you're going to have to define what you want in polyamory for yourself and not as a unit. It is something you do alone, right? And it's alone, but in community, because the community that people have found in the intentional polyamory cohort, like I, it's literally been life changing. It has made it so that we are still talking the very first cohort, we're still talking every day. And it is clear it is creating community. But through the act of like figuring out what you want your polyamorous life to look like, because again, we talk about concepts a lot, like polyamorous content creators. We talk about jealousy, and we talk about dating and we talk about calendaring. But like what? The reason why I created intentional polyamory is because nobody was saying, I am willing to start with you. Okay, So I think I want to have more than one partner and take you to this is what that looks like functionally, these are the conversations I need to have. This is what I need to figure out. And so people who find themselves, whatever, where a place you happen to be in your polyamorous journey, if you are just starting out, or maybe you've been doing it for a while, but you think that maybe you would like to be more intentional and structured with the way that you are approaching it, then I encourage people to either join a cohort or that's also how I do my coaching, right? So, Its planned for at least four sessions because we're going to take you through every single pillar of intentional polyamory and we're going to say, How are you setting up your life around this, right? Like, are you doing these things because each pillar builds on the other. That's going to take you to a place where at the end of the program, you at the very least know what you need to do, right? You might not be done with the work, but you will have a clear blueprint for what you need to do. Yeah.
Jess:
Yes. Awesome. So, you not only do this and in the group cohort way, like in that dynamic, but you also do this one on one. And I knew you were, you know, one on one coaching people anyway but you'll take the that same format with the pillars. And take your one on one clients through that journey.
Chaneé:
Absolutely.
Jess:
And amazing. Thank you for clarifying.
Chaneé:
Yeah, the intentional polyamory workbook is in process and is planning to. My intention is to release it on my birthday, which is May 21st. So, we shall see that give me two months to kind of perfected and get it out to my test group. So, we will see how that does.
Jess:
Oh my God, I'm writing this down and then we can celebrate your birthday.
Chaneé:
I'm a big birthday girl too, and it's so funny. Somebody like you're working on your birthday. I was like, I mean, it's another thing to celebrate.
Jess:
Yeah. That's like, what the end of towards season. You're like.
Channé:
Yes, I am Taurus, and the beginning of Gemini.
Jess:
Yes. Yes. Oh, my gosh. So exciting. Well, I cannot wait for this book to come out again. Thank you for going through the whole program and for educating me, because I did think that it was a co-creation. And I'm so like, it's awesome to hear that this is your baby. This is like work that you're doing. This is your offering and just is so it both of you in the group sessions and the cohorts?
Chaneé:
No, it's just me.
Jess:
Just you. Okay. And so. Right, cool.
Chaneé:
What I have been helping, I tell Jess all the time, I'm like, you know, you. Yes. She fits her balance and, like, showing up to content creation, showing up to motherhood and showing up to being a whole person. She you know, we have been kind of working together and sometimes you just need somebody to tell you like it's okay to take time off, right? It's okay to take time off. It's okay to delay a project. It's okay to do all those things in service to like being a whole person. So that's, you know, it's nice to find to find community around. Like, I want to I want to show up well to all of these things.
Jess:
Yes. And other mothers and sisters who just have your back. Yeah. And you will also be here, right. Do it.
Chaneé:
You need somebody to text “yo, I don't think I'm getting out of bed today”. Right. And the kind of friends that I have when I'm like, I don't I'm all burnt out and I don't have I can't get out of bed today. I need somebody who's going to be like, okay, what do you want for lunch? I'm going to send it to your door. You don't have to. You know what I mean? Like, that is the kind of support and loving community that I am seeking to create a to continue to create around. I think.
Jess:
Beautiful. And that's exactly what you'll attract. I love what you said earlier about, you know, this isn't we don't have this big grand plan, but we're also not closed off. We're open. And if something perfect like it has to be perfect to come into our lives, and likely it will, because, like, that's how you See it, right?
Chaneé:
I think if you have something good, you can always be open to better.
Jess:
Yes. Yes. So well said. Chaneé, thank you so much for sharing your vision, for sharing your life in the way that you do. I have to, like, laugh, actually, because people who listen to the show that kind of know my partners are also pretty private. And, you know, by being in a relationship with me, sometimes their life is a little bit on display. But I also get to navigate that so that I'm not putting their intimate experiences on blast, but still sharing my truth for, as you said, my husband's like, delete my name from everything. But it's like I'm like, they're going to find it, you know.
Chaneé:
He was like “Well, make them Google it, Damn it.” That’s fine.
Jess:
Yeah. Which is really cute for them. But I just appreciate that because it really does show people that this is possible. This is the life that we navigate it the way that we all do in our own reality. Like we all have such a different version of that reality. But it's so important to hear the reality from, you know, everyone else and the other person, you know, who doesn't look like you maybe have some of the same experiences. And hearing from your insight is so valuable to, you know, people like me and my listeners. So, I'm so grateful. And also, I'm taking like all the good polyamorous mama stuff.
Chaneé:
I'll be here. I'm so excited for you. And, you know, just I think one of the things about motherhood right, is it is incredibly humbling, right? It does not matter. I remember we were talking to our housekeeper. I was like eight months pregnant, and she has five. She at the time, my housekeeper at the time had five children and she was like, I just want you all to know that when that baby comes. She was doing what would be the final cleaning of our house before our baby came. And she was like, I want you to know that you're just going to be walking around this house like zombies because babies don't sleep. And we said we were like; we won't have that problem. There are three of us and three of us. We will all be well rested and fine. Let me tell you something. We were walking around this house like zombies. So, you know, polyamory or not, children. Babies in particular will humble you. So just now I will always be here for the like 2 a.m.. Like, you know, the baby won't sleep. It's okay. Just turn on the show. Don't fight it. Another show I watched. Surrender to parenting. It's like the best, the best advice that I can give a new mom.
Jess:
Surrender to parenting. I love it. So, so grateful. Thank you so much for chatting with us today. And definitely hop over to our Instagram because Chaneé's a rock in it, sharing a lot of this information and more in-depth and make sure you follow her and her work. And who knows, maybe when we release this episode, it'll be right in line with the book release.
Chaneé:
Stay tuned.
Jess:
Yes, stay tuned. All right, love. See you next week. All right, love. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. If you're on YouTube, make sure you are subscribed on all of these different platforms. The links are in the show notes. I am off. If you are listening to this in May, I am off on all of the travel. So if you want to check out the events that we're having in Israel, in Portugal, in the UK, head over to openly podcasts dot com to register or get tickets. These upcoming events and hear me speak all about, you know, non-monogamy. See you next week.
Quotes from the episode:
2:47 People have a conversation about polyamory in the clouds, and I like to have conversations about polyamory on the ground. – Chaneé Jackson Kendall
4:27 When we got married, we had our partners by our side at our wedding ceremony. – Chaneé Jackson Kendall
9:28 I fell madly in love with a woman three months before my husband and I got married. Chaneé Jackson Kendall
14:50 Our life is not public, but We Are Who We Are everywhere we go. – Chaneé Jackson Kendall
17:46 When our son was three months old me, and my partner fell in love with another woman. – Chaneé Jackson Kendall
18:50 The reality is that the way our current society is set up like even with lots and lots of money, two-parent households are largely unhappy. – Chaneé Jackson Kendall
34:28 I wanted to let other people, who naturally love the way that I love, know that it's not just something that upper-middle-class white people do. – Chaneé Jackson Kendall
39.09 Whenever you are taking in content, make sure that you never take advice from someone who's not where you want to be. – Chaneé Jackson Kendall
47:21 It is part of our relational culture that we should all have the freedom to date if we desire. – Chaneé Jackson Kendall
48:15 People are always so worried about the kids in polyamory; meanwhile, this is the most over-loved child ever. - Jessica Esfandiary
55:37 When you have something good, you can always be open to better. – Chaneé Jackson Kendall
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